meta name="description" content="Gay teacher removed from the classroom because he is homosexual. A bit of gay American history - Joe Acanfora fights to teach in the public schools in the 1970s; support from his students, fellow teachers and his family - real family values; newspaper and media coverage; letters from the public; a Penn State University teacher certification council interrogation, expert witnesses explore his impact on gay children and others; legal briefs; court testimony and decisions" /> The Case of Joe Acanfora



Federal Building
Baltimore, Maryland
April 16, 1973

Testimony of
Dr. John William Money


Honorable Joseph H. Young


For the Plaintiff:
George H. Cohen
Michael H. Gottesman
Darryl J. Anderson
Rob Ross Hendrickson

For the Defendant:
Robert S. Bourbon
Alan I. Baron


THE CLERK:Would you please state your name for the record.

THE WITNESS:John William Money.



Q:Dr. Money, could you give us your address, please.

A:My working address?


A:It is Johns Hopkins Hospital, Baltimore, Maryland 21205.

Q:Can you tell us your profession and the positions which you presently hold?

A:Yes, my profession is as a medical psychologist and I am Professor of Medical Psychology and Associate Professor of Pediatrics.

Q:At what institution?

A:That is Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine.

MR. GOTTESMAN:Your Honor, counsel for the Defendants have indicated they will stipulate that Dr. Money is qualified as an expert. We would just like to briefly identify him and then introduce his curriculum vitae and bibliography - if I might mark these as Plaintiff’s Exhibits next in line.

THE COURT:Any objections?

MR. BARON:No objections, Your Honor, because that is the way I think we sort of agreed to handle it.

THE COURT:Let them be admitted, then.

(Thereupon, bibliography of John Money, dated March 1st, 1973, was admitted in evidence as plaintiff’s Exhibit 16.) (Thereupon, the curriculum vitae of John Money was admitted in evidence as Plaintiff’s Exhibit 17.)


Q:Doctor, showing you Plaintiff’s Exhibit 16, can you identify that?

A:Yes. Do you want me to say what it is?

Q:Just briefly.

A:It is a bibliography of books and articles which I have written or have written in connection with people working with me.

Q:Now, there are many pages of documents there. Can you tell us, just in general terms, how much of that total bibliography deals with the subject of choice of sexual role or gender role and the determination of what kind of sexual role a person will ultimately assume and play?

A:Yes, about two-thirds of it.

Q:Showing you Plaintiff’s Exhibit 17, can you briefly identify this, p1ease.

A:Yes, that is my curriculum vitae.

(Thereupon, a book entitled, “Man and Woman - Boy and Girl” was admitted in evidence as Plaintiff’s Exhibit 18,)


Q:Dr. Money, I will show you what has been marked as Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 18, the introduction of which Defendants have indicated they have no objection to, it being a document or a book entitled “Man and Woman - Boy and Girl” by John Money, and is that Anca J. Erhardt?


Q:I will ask you if this is a book prepared by you and if you can very briefly and generally describe the subject matters covered by this book.

A:Yes, it is my book, written with Dr. Erhardt, who is a student of mine, and the subtitle of the book briefly tells the main idea of it. The subtitle is “The Differentiation and Dimorphism of Gender Identity from Conception to Maturity,” which, in more simple language, means how a boy develops his concept of masculinity and a girl develops her personal identity concepts of femininity and it traces this process from the genes to all the learning experiences up through adulthood.

Does this book encompass your most current, at least written knowledge, of the causes or ideologies, or whatever would be the appropriate word, of the ultimate adoption of gender role or gender identity?

A:Yes, it does.

Q:Incidentally, does it also deal with the existing state of science in this field, discussing the studies of others and their results, and so forth?

A:Yes, it is a review of all human knowledge on this particular topic as of 1972, which is also the same for 1973.

Q:As you know, Dr. Money, well, I guess you are familiar generally with the subject matter of this lawsuit, are you not?

A:I believe so, yes.

Q:I wonder if you could tell us – obviously in less words than an entire reading of the entire book would encompass -- but in such detail as you think necessary so we can understand it, the present state of science and the present understanding of science as to what influences one boy to grow up and be heterosexual and another to grow up and be homosexual, the causes and factors that influence that and the age levels at which these factors take hold and play their part?

A:Yes, I can do that best - at least initially - by referring to the type of case which teaches the lesson most clearly and also most dramatically.

That is the type of case in which an ordinary little boy has the tragic misfortune to undergo a complete loss of the penis in a circumcision accident and then to be reassigned and surgically reconstructed to live the life of a girl, since it is impossible to do the surgical corrections of replacing a lost penis. Then, under those circumstances, of totally and completely raising the child as a little girl, one ends up with a person who is, in behavior and psychology, feminine and is indistinguishable from other girls, let’s say of the same teen-age or adult age. The only possible distinction might be that such a person would tend to be athletically interested in the outdoors and in energetic pursuits, the sort of thing that we usually refer to as “tomboyism,” which as quite common in girls in our society and is not considered to be an unfeminine trait at all.

This type of case can, in fact, be called one of yetrogenic, that is, doctor produced, planned homosexuality, in the sense that from the point of view of the chromosomes, the genes, the hereditary material, this individual has the X-Y chromosomes that qualify as male, and at the time of birth, the person had the gonads, the testicles of the male and, of course, the external organs, too; so, from that point of view, from the point of view of genetic sex and gonadal sex, in adulthood, while this person is behaving exactly like a female and falling in love with a male, one would have to say it is a genetic and gonadal case of homosexuality, in the very literal sense.

This type of case is very dramatic, because it does show the extraordinary importance of early infantile and early childhood and social and learning experiences in the development and establishment and differentiation of a person’s gender identity.

It is very much like the establishment of the native language. We all get our native language fixed in us in this early infantile, early childhood period of life. It comes to us because we encounter the native language in our social environment, and so it is with gender identity. It is not there and fixed already the day we are born, but it is ready to grow in us as a result of the social and environmental experiences we have in that early period of life.

Q:Can you describe the kinds of social and environmental experiences that are likely to play a role in forming that gender identity and the ages at which they are likely to be significant?

A:I will begin with the ages first.

In the cases of uncertainty about the sex of a child, because of a birth defect of the sex organs, one doesn’t then have any freedom anymore by the age of five - as a matter of fact, even younger - to be able to make a re-announcement or a reassignment of sex, if the decision should be arrived at that the original one was wrong, because by the age of five, a little boy or a little girl normally has such a clearly differentiated gender identity that you can’t change it by edict.

The social influences that go into the establishment of this gender identity are, in part, identification, imitation, copying, in other words, or the parent - especially the parent of the same sex and, at the same time, complimentation, playing the reciprocal role to the parent of the opposite sex. Thus, one sees a little girl copying her mother and being a little flirty and seductive with her father, let’s say, around two to three years of age. She is learning how to play the little girl role toward the male. She compliments her brother’s behavior, just as he compliments her. As an example, a little boy very commonly takes up for his little sister and fights off anyone who is hurting her and the little sister plays a more motherly, protective role towards the little boy. That would be one example of complimentation.

There is an interplay between the two principles of learning by imitation or identification with a person or persons of the same sex and learning by complimentation to a person or persons of the other sex. Ideally, one has an agreement between the significant people, usually the father and the mother, as to what they define suitable for a little boy and a little girl. When they are in agreement like that, the messages come through clear and unambiguously to the growing child, and it becomes easy for him or for her to establish a clear and unitary gender identity.

When parents send out partially contradictory or ambiguous messages - which I see sometimes in some of the children I deal with - then, in those important, tender, formative years, it is difficult for a child to establish a clear gender identity with clear-cut boundaries to it, and it is quite likely that one will see evidence of ambiguity, a little boy that comes in dressing up in girlish kind of clothes, or making girlish kind of clothes --sashes out of pieces of rag or colored paper, for example - and sometimes actually saying that he wants to be a little girl, even to the extent of developing the hypothesis that one way that girls are made is by starting out as boys and having their penis drop off later on, and the same thing can happen, in reverse, for the little girl who has difficulty in getting her gender role and gender identity straight, too.

Q:What kind of messages do parents send that would be contradictory or ambiguous, or whatever, that, would lead a little boy to turn out to be a homosexual?

A:Well, essentially, the ambiguous messages would be that, a) though it’s, in some respects, all right to be a little boy and to have the sex organs of a little boy, in other respects there is something undesirable about that.

I believe I can best illustrate that by means of an example, and I will draw on a quite recent one, where a mother and father had gotten into trouble in their own personal marital relationship. They had a little adopted boy, who seemed to be developing in a satisfactory manner until about a year ago, and then the trouble between the parents became very severe, because it was against their moral background to expect to have adultery in the family. The father had gotten involved with another woman friend.

The contradictory messages which the little boy was able to pick up then were mostly from his mother, because he saw her very depressed and crying and very upset all the time. And as he later disclosed, when he was talking with her, he knew the basis of the problem, even though they had tried to hide it from him, because he asked if his daddy was going to marry this certain lady.

The messages he got, in other words, were that it was really nicer to be a person like mother. Mother was the nice kind of person in this dilemma, and there was something not very pleasant about being a person like father, who had the male sex organs and was using them, by the mother’s standards, inappropriately. This little boy did actually become rather “sissy” and effeminate, dressing up in girl’s clothes and playing with girl’s toys. For example, he insisted, which is quite unusual in my experience, when he had his photograph taken, of sitting there with a little play mirror and a play doll and his photograph taken with the doll looking in the mirror.

A little later when I told him I had talked with his mother and dad, and that thought we had reached a decision where it wouldn’t be necessary for him to have to play with girl’s things and do girl-type things, he appeared to be much relieved and, in fact, right then and there began making a game like that with a pencil and said it was a rocket going up.

I fully expect to hear, since those parents did manage to reconcile with one another, that this little boy, that kind of devious road of direction of his gender identity, the sissy road, which, would lead him to be a homosexual, will cease, and he will go back on the road that will allow him to get a normal little boy’s gender identity differentiation.

Q:Could you tell us the age of this little boy?

A:He was four and a half.

Q:You have indicated that at the age of five or so - or perhaps you indicated even a little earlier, I think you said - is the age at which these gender directions or the gender identity direction is pretty well fixed,

Assuming a child has grown up to be a boy, to be heterosexual, as of the age of five, what are the prospects that subsequent events will alter that course?

A:Well, five, six, around about that age, is the age at which a little boy’s gender identity becomes so clearly differentiated or so firmly imprinted that, under normal circumstances, it is virtually impossible to envisage a change after that.

I have had one or two cases that I have had to deal with where children at that young age have been caught in unusual circumstances – for instance, being dressed up as a little girl by a transvestite father. In other instances, being involved in homosexual play with a somewhat older person, possibly a teen-ager, and I have discovered, under those circumstances, there is very great resistance on the part of the little boy of five or six to any kind of unmasculine-type behavior, including unmasculine-type sexual play.

Q:Taking the little boy who, by the age of five or six, has developed or related to the messages being sent so that you would say that he is going to grow up to be a homosexual, what are the prospects that events subsequent to the age of five or six are going to alter his course?

A:To try and put him on the heterosexual trail?


A:Well, of course, we try to do that.

One way to do it is to attempt to have both parents come in to a joint form of psychotherapy so they can readjust and redefine their relationship together. That is actually tremendously important, because in all cases of effeminacy in young children I have seen – or the not quite so frequent cases of the opposite, in little girls, there has always been a problem going on between the parents in their sexual adjustment together, and something that is unsatisfactory about it - something that is pulling them asunder, but, at the same time, not allowing them to completely separate.

So, the first thing to do to try to help the youngster get back on the track of an ordinary heterosexual gender identity is to try to relieve him of the stresses and strains that are going on in the family and to which he is reacting by developing the symptoms or syndrome of sissiness.

At the same time, one can work with the youngster, too, but as it turns out, when the parents get the situation between them solved and then between themselves and their child straightened out, the child’s problems are more likely to take care of themselves without a tremendous amount of time spent on the little boy himself.

Q:Are there boys who reach puberty, or the commencement of adolescence, with their gender identities and there have been a number of words used during this trial -- on the fence, hanging in the balance, in doubt, subject still to be determined?

A:I will answer that question by beginning and saying that at the time of puberty, the one big change is the appearance of the sex hormones in the body, the male hormones made by the testicles in the male, and the female hormones made by the ovaries in the female. As everyone knows, those hormones are responsible for the change in the body shape and the appearance of masculinity, on the one hand, or femininity at adulthood, on the other.

From the point of view of behavior, it used to be thought - without any solid evidence behind it - it used to be thought the hormones at puberty would make a boy behave like a man and a girl behave like a woman, but that is not so.

There are many cases in which people, for medical reasons, have the bad luck to get the wrong hormone balance in them at puberty - the boy, for example, to grow breasts the size of a girl’s breasts. That does not make him begin to turn into a girl, mentally, or to think like a girl. It makes him horrified and all he wants to do is get to a plastic surgeon and have his chest straightened out.

So, that leaves us with the question of what do the hormones at puberty do, as far as behavior is concerned, and the answer is that they are sort of like - I sometimes use the expression, “fuel in the tank.” They give a flame to the sex drive, so to speak, which was much more quiescent in childhood. It wasn’t absent, but it was quieter. The sex hormones change the threshold and make it much easier for sexual behavior to appear or to be elicited.

So, now, I come to the second part of my answer --which is -- the kind of sexual behavior which appears with puberty is that the sexual behavior that the foundations have already been laid for in that earlier period of life -- for example, I followed a little boy who, as a youngster of four and five, had a fetish for wearing diapers. It was quite unnatural, the way he insisted on his mother putting diapers on him for a long time. He got erections from it. There is a long story behind that that I don’t need to go into, but my point is that when he reached the age of puberty with his hormones flowing, his sexual turn-on was sort of a disaster for him, because he was fixed on diapers instead of the ordinary, romantic interests of a little boy.

One way in which the mental life, the mental sexual life, •that has prepared itself in childhood shows in a boy of puberty is in his sex dreams, his wet dreams and, in other cases, in the masturbation fantasies. That is one of the most direct ways to find out how the imagery of sex got established and what the nature of the imagery turns out to be by getting a report of the dreams, if one can.

Now, rather more specifically, to get to your point and the third part of my answer is, is that there are some people, some boys, who reach the age of puberty and have an ambiguity about their gender identity - not an ambiguity as, for example, the diaper fetish or any other kind of fetish -- but an ambiguity on a male-female direction, or, as we would say, a homosexual ambiguity.

Q:Incidentally, do we have any knowledge or any data as to the frequency or the statistical range of persons who do reach puberty in that state?

A:The best information that we have, still, is that which was collected by Kinsey, in his studies, and it means that there are about probably at least three per cent of boys who reach the stage of puberty where they have a genuine ambiguity of what one might say, a bi-sexuality disposition with regard to their sexual expression.

Q:I would like to direct your attention to that group of boys and put to you a set of hypothetical facts and then ask you whether those facts are likely to influence the outcome, if there is an outcome to be influenced, of the sexual direction of that type of boy.

We have an eighth-grade teacher, who is age twenty-two, teaching a course in earth sciences in a public junior high school who is a homosexual. The students know that he is a homosexual, because he has participated in certain public programs and causes in which he has urged understanding toward homosexuals and an end to discrimination against homosexuals, yet never has spoken publicly advocating that people become homosexuals. He has never described any of his homosexual experiences, but because of his public advocacy of better treatment of homosexuals, his students know him to be a homosexual. In his classroom, he has never discussed sexuality, nor his own personal sexual preferences, nor has he ever talked to any of his students on those subjects out of the classroom, nor would he. He has never made any advances toward or tried to engage in any kind of sexual relationship with any of his students, nor would he.

His course in earth science is attended for fifty minutes each day by each of the students, five days a week. It is one of seven periods a day that they take in junior high school. In at least two and in some cases in three of the other periods, they are taught by other male teachers, who, at least, are not known to them to be homosexuals. I assume that they are supposed, presumably, they are heterosexual or sexual preference unknown. On that set of facts, can you discuss whether the presence of that teacher in the classroom, a homosexual teacher, who is known by his students to be a homosexual, would have any predictable impact upon the class of boys whom we were discussing earlier - that three percent, or whatever it is - whose gender identity is ambiguous and, if so, what would that influence be?

A:Yes, I can discuss it.

First of all, I will say that the source of information, the influence with relationship to homosexuality that impinge on children in the eighth grade in this day and age is much wider than just simply, one person in the classroom, especially in an urban school of the type that we are speaking of.

It is well-nigh universal for all children of eighth-grade age level to know a good deal about human sexuality, including homosexuality. They get this from television, from reading, from the general media. Some of them get it from quite straightforward discussions with their parents or other responsible persons and all of them, except for a very few who are excessively inhibited or shy, will get information from sharing it with people of their own age group, so that one person in the classroom is not, by any means, the sole source of influence.

The next point that I will make is that at this age, children are very important influences on each other, the so-called influence of the peer group.

I have known some examples where I have talked with young people who knew that a teacher in their junior high school was, ostensibly, homosexual, and I found out there that a very important factor can be that the youngsters, the boys, monitor one another, so to speak, away from homosexuality, which is a taboo for them, since they are all, the majority of them, are striving toward heterosexuality.

For example, I heard from one boy representing and talking about his school - and he was at that stage that although they were not sure that a certain teacher was a homosexual, it was part of the gossip, and any time that they saw a member of their group with any kind of behavior or habit or mannerism, in any way; shape or form, resembling what that teacher would do, they brought it to the attention of the person showing it, with possibly a little badgering, possibly a little bantering and sort of made sure that he got rid of it; so, they were actually monitoring themselves, as a group, very strongly toward heterosexuality.

Now, one can think of the example of the shy and extremely inhibited boy who has a very strong homosexual component or bisexual to his personality who doesn’t do very well with fitting in with his age mates, and because of his tendency toward effeminacy is rather ostracized by them; so, I would consider that type of case briefly.

This kind of boy, by having a knowledge of a teacher’s homosexuality, who is not some type of stereotypic freak, a dangerous person, but is a regular human being who seems to be able to behave and conduct himself in a regular human being kind of way, this kind of boy may find some help in his own tremendous anxieties and dilemmas, because a boy who has to discover himself bisexually or homosexually usually is pretty much affected by anxiety, since he knows that it is not the way things were planned for him and he really needs someone to be able to talk to, someone to be able to disclose his inner anxieties to.

Ideally he should be able to go to his parents and, traditionally, he is supposed to have been able to go to his doctor or his pastor or priest, but often his anxieties are so great that they prevent him from talking to anybody.

So, with the example of someone who doesn’t seem to be a complete monster, it may give him a sense of freedom that he can, in fact, disclose the dilemma that he is struggling with by going to his parents or his counselor at school or the preacher at church or the synagogue or the local physician, and if he does that, then he has the greatest possible chance of having either his anxieties alleviated or, in some possibilities, to strengthen the heterosexual component of his personality so that he may, in fact, be able to veer more in the heterosexual rather than the homosexual direction, especially if that is really the way he would prefer things to be.

Q:I would like to ask your comments about two possible consequences of that teacher in the classroom, which were testified to by Dr. Lourie and Dr. Heald last week. I will try, as best I can, to summarize their testimony, with the understanding that I may not have it quite right, but I will ask you to comment on whatever it is I say as to whether or not it accurately paraphrases their testimony.

I understood Dr. Lourie to say that though there was no data from which one could know this for sure, he, at least, entertained the possibility that an impressive teacher, whom children admired and were impressed by, and whom they knew to be a homosexual, might constitute a role model which would influence these ambivalent gender-identity boys to want to emulate him by themselves opting for homosexuality, whereas, previously, they had been in doubt, in order to conform themselves to this impressive person whom they want to emulate.

In your opinion, is that a prospect of possibility which exists, by virtue of this teacher in the c1assroorn, that it would increase the likelihood that any ambivalent gender-identity boy will become a homosexual?

A:Well, I don’t really think that likelihood is anymore increased than the next teacher who comes into the classroom for the next period, who is an equally attractive role model of a completely heterosexual nature, will have the boy either wanting to relate sexually to him or, in some instances, wanting to either espouse or reject his heterosexuality.

It is not simply an automatic thing that one either accepts or rejects the sexuality of the person who could be a role model, whether it be a heterosexual or homosexual.

There are many other facts that are going to be important influences here. I have already mentioned the extreme importance of the influence of the peer group. So, although I do not deny that in this world of us human beings, statistically speaking, anything can happen once, I guess.

I would not see this as a special likelihood or a special danger, if one thinks of it as a danger, simply by having a good role model, a boy who is having some ambiguity about his gender identity would automatically drift into the homosexual pattern. It could very well be exactly the opposite.

Q:Can you explain why it might he the opposite?

A:Well, there are so many models and so many pressures in our society that dictate that it is preferable in the eyes of most people to be heterosexual that that is a very powerful and important pressure on every growing boy I think one might say that it is a pretty universal tendency among all human beings to want to be average or normal.

Q:Dr. Lourie also testified as I recall his testimony, that Mr. Acanfora might serve as a sort of sexual turn-on to one of these ambivalent boys, and by arousing him, not, in fact, lead to a sexual relationship by Mr. Acanfora and the student, but get the student so stimulated that he would go hopping out of the class.

MR. BARON:Objection, Your Honor.

MR. GOTTESMAN:Excuse me, I didn’t mean that --

THE COURT:Sustain-the objection. You may rephrase the question.


Q:Would so stimulate the student, by his function as a sexual object, that the student would seek out more readily or more quickly other potential homosexual partners and would be more likely to participate in homosexual acts.

MR. BARON:I object to that, Your Honor. I don’t think that that is what Dr. Laurie testified.

THE COURT:Well, this is the danger of attempting to, in the entire process, to paraphrase what another witness has said.

If you want to ask him whether or not this is what he would say, I suppose the trier of facts is going to have to determine whether or not that is what the witness said. So, I do think you prefaced your earlier comments by saying would this be a fair characterization of what the witness said, and the Doctor can reply, in any event.

I will overrule the objection because of that.


Q:Perhaps there are really two parts to it. Perhaps I can ask them one at a time.

Do we know whether a known homosexual is a more attractive sex object to an ambivalent gender-identity boy than other men?

A:Well, then, the answer is that it would really be the other way around.

The ambivalent boy, with a strong bisexual or homosexual component to his personality, is more likely to be attracted toward the exclusively heterosexual boy than to another person, even of a somewhat greater age, who has the same kind of personality disposition as he, himself, has.

Q:Can you tell us why that is?

A:Well, I suppose, basically, it goes back to the fact that most men are mostly attracted to women so, there is an attraction toward opposites. So, insofar as the homosexual boy has effeminate ingredients to his personality, he tends to be attracted toward the regular, masculine-type heterosexual male.

Q:I guess the second part of that question, in your opinion, is Mr. Acanfora likely to play sex object role, vis-a-vis, these sexually ambivalent boys, such that they are more likely to engage in homosexual acts because of this exposure to him than they would have if they were exposed to a male who was not known to them to be a homosexual?

A:No, I don’t see any connection there at all.

If a boy has reached early teen-age with a strong homosexual component to his personality, and if he is not excessively shy, inhibited, embarrassed with regard to sexual expression, then, he will show some form of sexual expression and it will be completely independent of any model or example in the classroom.

Q:Apart from the effect of our hypothetical teacher on sexually ambivalent students actually engaging in homosexual acts, could you comment upon his impact upon our ambivalent student in terms of whether that student will feel uncomfortable; by virtue of the teacher’s presence in the classroom, or whether his anxieties will be increased, and let me give a thesis or an argument that supports the notion that he would be uncomfortable and/or have his anxieties increased, and I will ask you to comment on this.

The thesis will be that since this child is ambivalent, since society is pushing him in the direction of heterosexuality with all its might, seeing an attractive, impressive homosexual role model constitutes a counter pressure which pulls this child back toward considering that as a feasible alternative, thus increasing his internal conflict and turmoil and making him uncomfortable and suffering greater anxieties than he would otherwise suffer -- I don’t know whether that provides the framework for a comment, but I would appreciate your commenting on that thesis, if you can.

A:Well, I see your point, but I am thinking of some of the young people I have worked with who have had homosexual ambivalence in their personality and had known that they could turn to a certain role model within the school or within the church as a person who seemed to be, shall we say, a non-monster-type - non-monstrous, freakish-type person, homosexual, and what I have learned from these people is that it didn’t increase their anxieties. But, it gave them a sense of self-respect which they would not otherwise have had or may not have achieved for many years to come. Even if they were going to be stuck with themselves as homosexually-inclined, they at least could be a constructive and participating member of the human race and not some kind of derelict, discarded monster that nobody would be able to accept and approve of, if they knew.

So, in this sense, the availability of a homosexual role model can actually help to save a boy who might otherwise become psychiatrically afflicted with more symptoms than just the problem of his homosexuality. Then, having the available role model - if I may repeat what I said before - for certain other boys gives them the courage to disclose their anxieties about themselves, sexually, instead of keeping them hidden where they become a source of continued destructive anxiety, and then, by disclosing them, they may be able to be directed toward the right kind of people to talk to that will help them still further.

Q:I would like to spin out one more thesis and ask you to comment about this, and that thesis is: As children enter adolescence and the fuel is in the engine, as you have described it, they are still -- and we are talking now about boys who are both clearly predetermined to be heterosexual, and others, as well -- they, are still inhibited to cross group lines and commence actual sexual relationships with women and, consequently, as a first step, they engage in homosexual acts with each other, and some of those boys may get pegged -- I believe was the word --at that level - at that level, if, while they are engaging in these acts, which are not in themselves determinative of their future course, but actually in terms of their heterosexuality, if, while at that stage, they find a role model whom they find impressive and whom they are told has continued on to become a homosexual -- can you comment on that, please?

A:Well, your thesis is drawn from the old and outmoded concept of development - an old doctrine, actually, which was never substantiated - which claimed that all boys went through a homosexual phase of development in at least late childhood, or late latency, as it was called, or early puberty.

This doctrine seems to have gotten itself started in the textbooks from which it got repeated from one to the other, mostly on the basis of observations made around the turn of the century, some seventy-odd years ago, or earlier, when the segregation of sexes in boys’ schools and girls’ schools was very much more the thing than it is today. So, it seemed justified to some psychologists at that time to claim that all boys go through a homosexual phase, but when one actually gathers the statistics today, when people are not segregated according to sex in schools, then, it is not true that they all go through a homosexual phase at all. There are some who flower completely and immediately into heterosexuality. That is true for boys and girls.

That old story, the hypothesis of the homosexual phase, it really has to be put in the same category as the hypothesis of all people becoming homosexuals if they are locked away in jail for years. That simply isn’t true, either. There are some that are capable of being bisexual, in the sense that they can become homosexuals under the circumstances of being in jail. Usually, it means that they are homosexuals in the more masculine way, if they can find a more feminine partner.

So, back in the early days of boys’ schools, where there was some homosexual play going on, usually between the seniors imposing themselves upon the juniors, it was much like the story of people segregated away in jail. The end of the story is that these people never become homosexuals. They are simply making the best of the limited circumstances, and as soon as they are free and have the availability of an ordinary, romantic, sexual relationship with the opposite sex, that is the way they turn for keeps.

Q:Finally, given our hypothetical facts which I described ear1ier, the teacher in the earth science class, in your opinion -- taking into account whatever factors you think appropriate, Is he likely to be any greater hazard to the students in his class than would a heterosexual teacher be, a heterosexual, male teacher, if he were substituted in place of our hypothetical teacher?

A:I don’t think he is any greater hazard, and I say that remembering the fact that children in our schools, especially in our urban schools today, are extremely sophisticated in matters of human sexuality.

They have a pretty good conception of how the world is. As a matter of fact, I am always amazed at how much good, common sense and wisdom they do show, as a group. I am very impressed by the new crop of adolescents, and I think that perhaps one could even twist it around the other way and say that the tolerant acceptance of a respectable homosexual is a good lesson for these wise and sophisticated youngsters of teaching them the degree of tolerance that we could stand more of in our society.

Q:Dr. Money, you are a member of the National Institute of Health Task Force on Homosexuality, are you not?


Q:Didn’t you and your colleagues on that Task Force address yourself to the subject of discrimination in employment -- I mean, obviously against homosexuals?


Q:Did you draw conclusions as to whether barriers to employment of homosexuals should or should not be continued in employment in the United States?

MR. BARON:Your Honor, I am going to object. It seems to me that he is going in a pretty broad scope here.

THE COURT:We are not talking about barriers, generally, are we? We are talking about barriers in the eighth-grade science course in Montgomery County.


Q:Did the Task Force identify those areas where they thought segregation of homosexuals in employment might be or should be?

MR. BARON:I object.

THE COURT:Sustained.

MR. BARON:The report is in evidence.

MR. GOTTESMAN:We have no further questions, Your Honor.



Q:Dr. Money, I would like to direct your attention to conclusions in your book, “Man and Woman -Boy and Girl.” in the epilogue - in fact, it is the last finding - “All the words in all twelve chapters of this book do not add up to give the power of prophecy as to how any given individual child will grow up sexually and psychosexually. There are many intervening variables still to be ascertained, and many opportunities for fate to let chance make decisions, impressive as may be the growing body of knowledge on human psychosexual differentiation, no one concerned with research need feel like Alexander, crying for lack of new worlds to conquer.”

In light of that statement, would you agree that there are a great many things about psychosexual development we have yet ascertained?

A:Yes, there are a great many things about all humans.

Q:Including psychosexual knowledge?

A:That is right.

Q:Let me also address myself to the “Task Force on Homosexuality,” put out by the National Institute of Health, of which you were a member. Did you agree with the initial presentation and recommendations which came out of that study?

A:I was one of the majority report, if that is the meaning of your question.

Q:I noted in the preface of the report that certain of the people had some minority views with regard to the recommendations. I, therefore, implied you were generally in accord with the recommendations and the way it came out in the report, is that accurate?

A:I was among the majority group.

Q:Let me direct your attention to really number three, prevention, and read to you the first statement: “For most workers in the field of prevention of the development of homosexual orientation in a child or adolescent as a science is one of the most important goals.” First of all, do you agree now, today with that recommendation?

A:Yes, I do.

Q:Could you tell me what you meant in going along with that recommendation, initially, and today? What do you mean today with regard to the prevention of the development of homosexual orientation in adolescents as one of the most important goals?

A:Yes, the meaning there is that one would like to have the fullest possible understanding in society and among, young parents embarked on child rearing with respect to matters of how they handle the sexuality of their growing infant and young child, and how they handle the sexuality as it relates specifically to gender identity and its differentiation, so that by the time these children reach adolescence, they will have a straightforward gender identity as a boy or girl, without confusion or ambiguity.

Q:I take it from your testimony that you recognize that at least three percent of the population, I think you prefaced it by saying that there are at least three per cent of the population of boys who are ambiguous with regard to gender orientation, is that correct? Is that a correct statement?


Q:All right, you put it at three percent as being the least figure. How large could it be? Again, I recognize it is a bit of a guess. How large could you see this group getting?

A:Well, you know it is a group that is not defined as exclusively homosexual, but having some degree, at least among parts of its membership, who to some degree have bisexual tendencies so the issue really becomes one of ratio of heterosexual to homosexual if you put heterosexual under the title bisexual; so, allowing that there are difficulties of factual mathematical precision here, one, could say perhaps three to five percent. I am quoting now from figures that are used in various people’s writings.

Q:Now, if I understand your thesis correctly, you are saying that the early influences up to the age of five or six in males are, in effect, decisive in terms of orientation, and after the age of six, pretty much of what happens later is not going to have a substantial effect on the ultimate decision as to whether they are going to be heterosexual or homosexual. Is that a fair statement?

A:That is fair enough.

Q:At the same time, however, I understand from your testimony that you saw a substantial pressure on children in adolescence in terms of orientation by their peers. To what extent can you reconcile the early orientation you testified to earlier and the peer orientation which you later testified to? What, if any, effect could that have or has the die been cast at that early an age?

A:Well, you know, children and teenagers put enormous pressures on the group. They contribute to the pressure of the group to conformity in all manners. It is very important, if you are going to be a full-fledged member of the group, that you play the same games they play in the same seasons. You wear the same clothes. Teenagers are very clear-cut to the pressure to almost wear a uniform that is the fashion of the year or at the epoch. There is also that same pressure of conformity with the peer group also with regard to matters of sexual behavior, of romance, dating, double dating, and, eventually, sexual relations.

Q:Are you suggesting then that that is only on the surface and that that will not affect the ultimate orientation, even for these bisexual occasions?

A:I guess there is really a pragmatic answer there. If the pressure of the peer group would effect all of the bisexual kids, then there wouldn’t be any bisexual kids, but the difficulty in sexual orientation in certain individuals, some of those with bisexual tendencies, are sufficiently deep-seated, that it does not respond to the pressures of the peer group.

Q:Is it also accurate to state that a great deal of knowledge that has been developed with regard to sexuality, in general, and a great deal of the experiments which you have referred to in your book are based on experiments that have been conducted on animals in the lower field, that is, rats, hamsters, and so on? In all types of animals, in effect, experimentation is possible, isn’t that right?

A:I am not sure I get your question.

I can say, first of all, yes, there have been many experiments with lower animals and they are the traditional laboratory animals.

Q:Maybe I ought to elaborate my question.

Isn’t it a fact that a great deal of the hypothesis about human sexuality is extrapolated from experiments which have been conducted on animals which are ethically unthinkable - I think is the term you use in your book - with regard to human beings.

A:That is not quite the way I say it.

Some basic principles of sexuality in nature are worked out on laboratory animals and then the next step is to ascertain the ways that are ethically available to see if any of these principles might apply to human beings also. And it is not really quite the same as extrapolating, to use the word that you used, as far as human sexuality is concerned. It is not sufficiently any more difficult to be human than it is to be a chimpanzee or a gorilla. I would say that all people working in the field of sexuality are very careful not to extrapolate, but rather check this human evidence itself and find out whether the hypothesis that may have been first ascertained and worked with on animals might possibly apply to human beings, too.

Let me illustrate that briefly. One thing that becomes clear in animal experimentation among rodents, the rat, which is the most commonly studied, and then the mouse. Among the rodents, the attraction between the sexes are mechanically determined by the hormonal status of the male or especially the female if she is ovulating. That is

almost mechanicalistic by hormones which no longer appears in the primates.

The background of the rhesus monkey will be profoundly important in what kind of sexual behavior it is capable of showing in adulthood. By the time you get up the scale to the human beings, the mechanicalistic determination of the hormones on sexual behavior is almost completely gone, except the threshold effect, which I have already mentioned.

Q:Let me direct your attention to page 113 of your book. Perhaps it might be easier if you gave Dr. Money a copy. At the bottom of the page:

“Lacking all the evidence that might be desirable, one must be satisfied with such evidence as available. The human clinical syndromes reviewed in this chapter suggest that there is in human beings a counterpart experimental animal data on the influence of prenatal hormones on gender behavior. Nonetheless, as compared with these species, much that pertains to human gender identity [__]ntiation remains to be accomplished after birth...” … goes on there.

My point is that with reference to […] statement, Is that the kind of relationship between the animal data and human data that you have been using here?

A:Maybe I will more safely say that I […] kind.

You know, the point here, if you are experimenting with monkeys, you can actually take a mother that is pregnant and inject male hormones into her in order to have her daughter monkey born with a penis instead of female organs. I hardly need to say that one can’t with human beings. Insofar as nature herself does the counterpart of this in some of the medical […] that occur during pregnancy, then one takes a hold […] opportunity of those children who are born with the condition in order to study them and then it does turn out that there are some parallels in developmental behavior of these […]ular girls and the monkey girls.

Q:Appropo of that point you have just made, is it not also fair to say that learning that we have acquired, the learning that is reflected in your book, insofar as it is applied directly to the human subject or in terms of the beginning of human subjects you are dealing with, as I read it, almost exclusively with anatomical ambiguities, the children whose sex, on an anatomical basis, is ambiguous or the effect of the boy with the external genitalia of a girl, or vice versa, or did he have an anatomical accident again, the child whose penis was cauterized in the process of circumcision -- is it not a fact that the data with regard to human being’s biological abnormalities is the exception to the rule rather than the general population, at large?

A:The answer there, you know, is that in all of medical science and in medical advances, people for generations have understood the normal when they come to observe it with a greater precision and clarity by understanding the actions and the exaggerations of the abnormal - since abnormalities are always exaggerations, what you find, according to the studies that are recorded in this book, they offer us a chance to observe development in motion, so to speak, that does not make itself so clear to us by simply looking at ordinary children growing up but having learned these lessons from the unusual cases, one then turns to ordinary children growing up and asks more appropriate questions of one’s self than one had beforeand gets answers that otherwise would not have been obtainable.

I do work with the unusual cases, but I also work with at least an equal number of children who are anatomically normal and I follow them from infancy up through adolescence. As a matter of fact, the older group of my patients are parents themselves since I have been working with them, since 1951.

Q:With regard to that, you made the point, I believe, in your testimony that there were children today that were subjected to a great many stimuli in the environment relating to sexuality and I think specifically you spoke about homosexuals, the movies, television, radio, talk shows, and this kind of stuff.

Again, in view of your basic thesis, as I understand it, that their sexuality and their sexual identification is fixed as of the age of five or six, to what extent, if any, do you see these stimuli having any impact on these children when they reach ages 12, 13, 14, 15?

A:I believe the word I want to use there is the word I used before. They have a degree of sophistication toward the manifestations of human nature which earlier generations didn’t have. I think they have, also, something new as compared with an earlier generation and that in a degree of tolerance for other people who are different.

Q:But do these […………..]

A:Their own, [……….]

Q:Yes, in terms [………….]

A:I don’t think [……] of threatening or changing […….] children concerned.

You are asking [….] ness to it. To be tolerant […] people different does reflect something […..] of one’s own generder identity […..] I believe I can answer your […..] believe that greater exposure […..] not have a deleterious effect [….] we are speaking of in early […].

MR. BARON:I have nothing further.

THE COURT:Any further questions, Mr. Gottesman?

MR. GOTTESMAN:Thank you Your Honor, yes.



Q:Now, you refer [….] to three percent and then to the […..] percent, and it wasn’t clear whether […] figure representing all [….] if that is the right word […]. homosexuals or bisexual or whether that figure is for bisexuals alone. I wonder if you would indicate.

A:I said from three to five percent, if one extends the definition of the homosexuals to include more bisexual people until the ratio is not just 50-50, but let’s say, well, 70-30 in favor of the heterosexual.

Three percent is a fairly safe figure with which to work in terms of people whose primary disposition -- although there may be some part of their history that is bisexual -the primary disposition is in terms of the homosexual orientation.

Q:Does this three percent include those whose pre-disposition is that of homosexuality?

A:The three percent does include that.

Q:If such information exists, can you give us a break down of how much of the three percent consists of those who are not “on the fence,” which are words that have been thrown around here prior to today?

A:I haven’t come across any studies that have attempted to make that degree of precision in the breakdown.

MR. GOTTESMAN:We have nothing further, Your Honor.

THE COURT:Mr. Baron?

MR. BARON:One moment, Your Honor.

THE COURT:Let me interrupt a moment, Doctor, and ask you this: You indicated in your testimony, referring to the three or five percent of the ambivalent group -- and you are talking about now those who are still in the ambivalent stage when they become ‘eighth grade students as for example, 12, 13. 14 years of age?

THE WITNESS:Were the three percent, is that what you mean?


THE WITNESS:The three percent would include those who are usually called exclusively homosexual. It would also spread over to include some of them who have had bisexual experiences or will have some.

THE COURT:I am talking now about the ages at which you are relating this percentage.

THE WITNESS:It would be at that stage. It would also hold ten years later, twenty years later, thirty years later.

THE COURT:You have indicated also, I think, that those individuals not being “normal” would be subject to stress and strain in their desire to be like everybody else. Is that basically correct?

THE WITNESS:I would be a bit more inclined to put it more around the other way and say that if they feel a sense of great shame and embarrassment and guilt about being different that that is the stress and strain, and, so, secondly, they will -- at least in many instances --show some manifestation of a desire for conformity.

THE COURT:What I am referring to now has nothing to do with directly the homosexual tendencies as to stress and strain, but an individual who is taught by the hypothetical teacher that has been referred to here, the known homosexual, who may run into opposition at home because parents may still be holding on to antiquated medical theories you have referred to, what effect is that going to have on them as far as stress and strain on the individual student?

THE WITNESS:Now, let me get it straight. He is liable to run into problems at home because --

THE COURT:Assuming there would be opposition within the family to a child being taught by a known homosexual, what, if any - and maybe you can’t indicate it -- stress and anxiety would this produce upon the individual -- and I am not referring necessarily to the three or five percent? I am referring to the students, in general.

THE WITNESS:I don’t think that that would produce anymore stress and strain on either the three percent of the entire classroom than it would the other 97 percent. There are some children who are always having trouble with their parents and some parents who are always having trouble with their children. They seem never to be able to reach a sense of understanding together. When I come across that, I can’t say that it ever relates to specifically one teacher, whether it is sex teacher, a religious teacher, a sex education teacher, you are just as likely to find that when children are able to bring the matters out in the open, it actually resolves stress and strain at home and helps the child to get together a little more closely than would have otherwise been the case.



Q:Did I understand correctly that that figure range of three to five percent included the bisexual, strongly homosexual group?

THE COURT:I don’t think that was the doctor’s testimony.

MR. BARON:I thought it was.

THE COURT:As I understand it, it includes the committed homosexuals as well as the ambivalent or bisexual.

THE WITNESS:The three percent includes people who, generally as the term is used, are “obligative homosexuals” who will almost exclusively -- or exclusive homosexuals -- but it includes some who will have some bisexual experience in their history. If one expands the figure from three percent to five percent, then the extra two percent would be made up of people who have a greater degree of bisexuality in their experiences.


Q:Can I infer that approximately 95 percent of the committed heterosexuals would answer without ambiguity as would the homosexual commit himself?


Q:Could I refer to Paul Gebhard’s article in the National Institute of Health report: “It seems clear that the bulk of the incidence of overt homosexuality in post-pubertal life occurs between puberty and age 16. Finger found that nearly three-quarters of the 27 percent incidence he discovered was compiled prior to age 17. Kinsey found that while 33 percent of the college educated had had overt homosexual contact including orgasm, the incidence was 23 percent by age 16 - leaving only a 10 percentage point increase over the next 9 years. The high incidence reported among high school students by Ramsey corraborates these findings.”

Now, can you explain what appears to me to be a discrepancy between your statistics and the ones to which I have just referred?


The higher figures beyond five per cent include the type of thing that I mentioned when I referred to the people in prison.. It would include also the type of thing one used to get when boys were segregated in the exclusive boys’ schools without contact with members of the opposite sex.

That figure; as gathered by people like Kinsey and reported by Gebhard, would include people who have admitted they have had one homosexual experience in their whole lifetime. I was not including that in the figure of three to five percent because I was restricting myself more to the homosexual or bisexual for whom it is a very important and frequent part of their lives.

Q:In the study of Finger, he refers to the sex beliefs and practices among male college students. Assuming he wasn’t referring to colllege as a jail, apparently his statistics had nothing to do with the incidence in jail.

A:I am not restricting myself to the using of the jail or segregated schools and camps. As an example, among the people that I will talk to, they have tried a homosexual relationship once or something happened to them once when they were in the army or hitchhiking. These are trivial and unimportant things. It is like saying you ate bear meat once. You simply don’t make a regular habit of it in your diet. I didn’t include these things, because these examples are examples of something they accepted and I accepted as so trivial that they were not included -- trivial to me in terms of what we are really talking about here.

MR. BARON:Nothing further.

THE COURT:Anything else, gentlemen?

MR. GOTTESMAN:No, Your Honor.

THE COURT:Thank you, Doctor Money. You may be excused


I hereby certify that the foregoing excerpt from the transcript of proceedings is true and accurate.

S.M. Lee Schap

Official Court Reporter

20.10.2006 0:22